As we sit on our perch at the 22 mile-marker at Cleveland Circle in Boston waiting for the race to begin 22 miles west of us, I thought this interview with the kid might be interesting to newer runners out there who may not know where to begin or to runners who are wondering how to incorporate a vegan diet into pounding the pavement 100 miles each week.

How is this Boston Marathon different than your first two Boston Marathons?

For this 2022 marathon, I trained on my own. I wasn’t training with a team because of COVID. I am also heavier than I was for the second Boston, even though I am actually eating healthier. The training cycle has felt pretty stress free in its build up, pretty relaxed. It’s different, though, because I haven’t raced in 3 years, so that’s weird. Not sure what to expect on race day…

What motivates you to get up and run even though you haven’t had a race to train for over the past few years – and how difficult was it to train on your own because of the pandemic?

I was afraid to lose my fitness, so I tried to capture as much of it as I could. I knew I needed to change things because it was going to be different for a while and I didn’t know how to measure a successful training cycle, as I would have done in previous years with marathons on the schedule. I spent much of the pandemic focusing on shorter races to work on some of my weaknesses (speed work). That worked pretty well until I got hurt and then I decided to try and trust myself to continue my own training to get more fit rather than faster. It became a game of proving what I knew was for right for me, I guess.

What would you say to an athlete who is considering a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle and wants to continue running marathons?

My first question to the runner would be, “Why are you wanting to do such a thing?” Don’t do it just because you think a vegan diet is healthier. I would do it because your body does well on a vegetarian diet. Or, do it for animals – that’s why I do it. It’s easy to be an unhealthy vegan. So,  I would say, “Don’t do it just to lose weight. If you are doing it for health, you still have to be disciplined, just like with any nutritional regimen.”

What would you say is the main difference between the diet you had in the lead up to an earlier marathon and the diet you have now?

In the last year, I’ve been trying to eat more nutrients and vegetables and make sure that’s part of my diet, even though it doesn’t contribute to the typically carbohydrate-heavy running fuel, it does contribute to recovery and other parts of running. I tried to eat a lot more diverse diet than I used to.

Do you have difficulties getting protein in when you’re expending so much energy running each day?

If I did have problems getting enough protein, it would show up pretty damn quickly in my training. I’ve never had an issue recovering from workouts or runs. Not being able to get enough protein is not a problem for a vegan if you pay attention to what you are supposed to eat.

How did you get started running?

I was just looking for a new hobby to get into and I thought running would be a good challenge since it wasn’t something I was very good at.  I found a local team to join and made a bunch of friends.

Were you were you intimidated to join a running club?

I mean, I didn’t really know which direction to even run around a track, so yeah, I was intimidated, but the team I first joined had a program for people that were newer to the sport. It ended up being pretty welcoming and easy to participate.

How long did you stay with that team and what came next?

About a year and then I started looking for a more structured program.

How did you know it was time to look for a more structured program?

I just wanted to improve faster and the team I had started with gave me a really good introduction to the sport. But, I tend to like competition and wanted to focus less on meeting new people in a meet-up type group and rather, join a group that was more more focused on competing. I just started looking around to see if there were teams around DC that were running at a more competitive level and reached out to a couple. One of the coaches I contacted wrote back to me, so I joined the new team.

What was it like running with your second team?

It was kind of the perfect balance of a bunch of really talented runners that were all improving at roughly the same rate. I had the benefit of training with the same group of teammates over all the days and weeks of training, and the personalities were a good fit for me. Plus, their afternoon sessions were available and since I like running in the evening, that made it an easy decision. I also like running with runners who were better or more experienced runners than me.

Was this group roughly at your level?

It was a big group so there were plenty of runners at my level at any given time for me to run with, but there were a lot of runners better than me on the team, too, which always gave me something to kind of strive for.

How did the pandemic affect your running, especially with the team you were on at the beginning of the pandemic?

I started a new job just before the pandemic hit which changed my schedule up. I wasn’t able to meet up with my team as often as I used to, so out of necessity, I was doing a lot of running on my own. Obviously, most of the races I had been training for were cancelled, so I knew that the focus would have to shift because races are such an easy thing to motivate and train for. I ended up using the down time to try to focus on some new distances rather than waste a whole season training for a race that would most likely be canceled. I was just trying to use the downtime to try something new that would improve and offer a different aspect of my running.

Did you run when you were younger?

Nope.

What sports were you involved with when you were younger?

Sports where hot dogs were easy to obtain? 😊

I played baseball and golf mostly, but focused on golf in my young adult years.

Do you think any of those sports prepared you to be a good runner?

Yeah. Golf has a weird amount of parallels to running, even though it’s physically so different. There is a lot of planning, especially in the competition aspect of both golf and running. I’ve found waking up early and getting to the course and thinking about the racing plan to be familiar to what I experienced on match day in golf. And, everyone’s got these pre-race rituals that are very similar to how people operate before golf tournaments. It kind of felt weirdly comfortable. Both sports also offer a good amount of alone time during competition and you have to be okay with your managing your mental game, so I think golf helps with that.

What about the mental aspect of running? What do you do to prepare mentally for the inevitable pain that you’re going to endure on the course?

In my training in the run-up to a race, I tend to find the days when I am not feeling great because of stomach issues or something that just isn’t going right, to use as motivation. If I could overcome that feeling during my training, I could translate that into motivation (and not panicking) on race day. If I could generate a decent workout, through an injury or mild illness, even if my paces were off, I try to capture that for a race day issue. I try to focus on that feeling and remind myself before the race that even if it isn’t a great running day, physically, mentally, or even weather-wise, I have worked through something similar in training. I’ve learned to deal with the pain that will inevitably show up rather than what just feels good or easy.

If you were coaching a young person today, what would you tell them to think about when they hit a wall mid-race?

I would tell them that they probably shouldn’t hit a wall if they prepared properly with their nutrition. So, the first thing I would tell them is to practice eating race day food properly in the days and weeks before a race – just like in the physical training for a race — so that you don’t hit a wall. But, if you find yourself struggling to get over a physical  or even a mental wall (and, we’ve all been there, it’s a long race!), I would say, just grind on for a couple of minutes and focus on getting through whatever thing you’re suffering from. I have found that pain usually tends to ebb a bit and in another mile or two it will probably begin to feel easier again. If you have to slow down a bit to get your feet back on you, it’s OK. There’s plenty of time. Don’t panic.

Does the crowd give you energy?

I think when I’m having my best days, I’m very internally motivated and I don’t tend to focus too much on the noise and stuff. For me, the crowd is a really useful tool when things aren’t going great and I try to not ignore the cheering, especially if I’m struggling. Just let the crowd create some free adrenaline for you to push through whatever it is – whether it is a big hill or the last mile or two. So, yeah, I mean the crowd definitely helps. I just I think if I was having a great day, I could probably do well on a quiet course, too, but for me, it’s always nice to have a big race city like Boston. It’s kind of like an added security blanket for me because if things aren’t perfect, I can use the crowd’s energy to compensate a bit.

What are three things you do that most runners don’t typically do?

 I eat a lot more than most runners —  like purposefully, not just for fun. I don’t ever listen to music when I run, which I guess is a popular thing for a lot of runners to do. I kind of like to just listen to my breathing and focus on the feeling I have when I’m running rather than looking at the watch or whatever. I also tend to run by time more than by mileage, except for some key workouts. I’ll usually just run for an hour or something and  my pace is my pace, but I think a lot of people get really hung up on mileage or hitting splits.

Does it take a lot of money to be a competitive runner?

I think more than people realize. I mean, shoes are expensive and the more you run the more you wear shoes out. I go through a pair of training shoes every month and race shoes are a couple hundred bucks now. Additionally, I might have a speed shoe, too, so the more serious you get, the more stuff you tend to buy. Also, my food costs a lot more money because I  have a bigger diet. You need to eat higher quality food because you’re going to have to recover from big workouts.

It’s not super expensive, though, compared to a lot of other sports, I guess. Ultimately, if you get more competitive, you are probably replacing some of your other activities and habits with running, so it’s more about refocusing what you spend your money on. Of course, there’s the cost of going to the races and staying at hotels and all that that entails, so sure, I mean it’s not free. If you want to try and run races and compete, you probably have to  invest a bit in the sport.

If you have somebody who can’t afford all of the stuff you listed above, ist is there a way to do it more economically?

Yeah, I mean you don’t need super expensive shoes to race, for sure, and I think you could focus on local races, which would save probably the biggest chunk of change. Focus on your hometown marathon or half marathon or shorter races. If you’re going to do marathons, you need to make sure you’re doing the right amount of volume each week, so I don’t think it’s smart to skimp on shoes, but if you’re on a budget, you can certainly look for last year’s shoes, which are usually on sale each season.

What about coaches — is it important to have a coach or is a do-it-yourself model better?

For me, I think it’s helpful to have a coach. I think even if the coach does nothing other than just look at you at workouts, it helps. It’s really hard to stop yourself from overdoing it or running too hard or too much, so adding a coach can be a useful barrier to protect you from yourself.

Some coaches can offer really creative training and that’s great. It is really easy to fall into a trap at looking at other runners who are having a great training cycle and say I want to go do whatever they’re doing. But, a good coach can help personalize your training program since everyone is so different.

Let’s talk about weight control and weight. What have you done personally to maintain your fitness, how have you changed over the years, and what have you seen in terms of weight management on courses?  Are female athletes particularly susceptible to weight issues?

Hey, there’s an obvious notion that being lighter is faster, but I think that is hopefully being debunked. I can only speak from personal experience. I lost a bunch of weight as I started training, but I didn’t lose that weight to become faster — it’s just a natural byproduct of going from no aerobic exercise to doing that predominantly burns a ton of calories. As I’ve gotten better at running, I’ve had seasons where I’ve been 10 pounds lighter and some where I have been 10 pounds heavier. There’s no correlation in my performance to that weight, but it is my own personal experience. It’s more about my general fitness and how healthy I am.

I’m a male, so can’t necessarily speak to how female athletes deal with body image, fitness, and weight management, but I do think there are some differences with between our body types (obviously). I think what we’re finding out, specifically if you look at elite  female runners, is that they are getting stronger every year and whatever perceived disadvantage there is from an extra pound of body weight is clearly being outperformed by the extra strength and health that the runners are encountering. You’re seeing a lot more weight lifting strength programs being incorporated into elite marathoning plans and I think it’s showing up in the times. For me, strength and fitness are way more important than weight.

Give me your time trajectory from your first marathon to today and how long it took you to get there.

I think I had my first marathon (not Boston) was in 2013 and I ran 3:58. My last marathon, before today, was in 2019 and I ran a 2:37. I started running in 2012, so I guess eight years ago, the trajectory was steep, so I was cutting off big chunks of time. I think it went from like 3;58 to 3:30 to 3:05 in something like 3 years.

Yeah, but now it’s much more incremental. I find myself going for a minute PR here or there, sometimes even less. Nowadays, any PR equals a good performance at this point. It is important to remember that I didn’t a running background, so I had a lot more improvement up front because I was new to the sport.

Do you change your diet the day before a race or in the days ahead of the race?

Yeah, I mean I tend to always eat fairly healthy anyway, but when I’m not training, I can indulge in a lot of  vegan processed food. I’ve always said being vegan is not a healthy choice, it’s an ethical choice. It’s easy to be on an unhealthy vegan.

In the offseason, as I think about started a new training round, I’ll start to clean my diet up. Usually about a month out from a race, I’ll try to get a little more strict and cut out sweets and limit the processed food.

About three days out, I kind of take another step and focus more on carbohydrate intake. I’ll up my overall intake and try to re-balance my calories so that it is more biased toward carbohydrates.

I usually try to get about 2/3 to 3/4 of my calories from carbs and then on the last day before a race, it is not actually that much food that I consume –the total calories aren’t going to make any really difference. It’s just very much about being carb-focused like maybe like 75-80% carbs

I try to practice this routine each week in the leadup so that I’m very familiar with the kinds of foods I’m eating — I’m just eating a little bit more than I would on a training long run. I really try not to change anything significant in the days leading up to a race in terms of taste profiles and  I actually model all my training food the same way.

Those foods are all built around stuff  I can buy in any grocery store and cook in any hotel, so I don’t have to panic or worry about the way a certain restaurant cooks something the night before a race. I tend to build everything out around things like bananas, polenta, oatmeal – so that way, I’m not stuck if I go to a city race with a restaurant that doesn’t have items I want on the menu or something.

The last question, what kind of mileage are you doing now in the lead up to your race versus what you were doing five years ago or seven or eight years ago?

When I started running my first marathon cycle, I don’t remember what I did, but I think it’s probably like 40 or 50 miles a week, which is decent mileage, actually. Then, as I started improving and getting a little more fit, I started playing with the volume. I was pretty fortunate I didn’t have any like real injury setbacks.

I have only had one real injury in seven years. I like the montra: you should only do the workouts you’re capable of recovering from!

So, if you’re only doing 50 miles a week, you shouldn’t do workouts like guys who are doing 100 miles a week. As your volume increases, you can do bigger workouts because you’re more fit, and as you get fitter, you can do more mileage.

 In 2017 to 2019,  I was mostly doing 90 to 100 mile weeks and that’s was fine for me then. It’s a really good way to get fit and  I was injury free for all those years and running really well. As the pandemic hit, I had to take a little break from marathon training which brought the mileage down, so as I said, I tried to focus on building a little speed.

I thought it probably wasn’t the best idea to just go right back into a huge mileage season, so I kind of focused around 75 to 80 miles a week and a little bit of quality just to give my body the chance to recover from the big workouts I was doing. I think it’s a pretty good middle ground between high mileage and maybe a lower mileage plan. We will see whether that works in my favor on race day!